05.26.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, Bands / Live Music, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction, Industrial at 11:40 am by Ted W
Hi Ted-
Thanks for taking the time to post the blog. I enjoyed the posts so far and hope to enjoy more.
I have a particular sound issue that I hope you can help me with. I need to dampen the noise in a bar in New York City. The ceilings are 18′ high, but the floors are wood and tile, the ceilings are tin, and the walls are mostly brick. The space itself if roughly 1200 sf; right now, if more than ten people are in the room, it sound like a big speaker.
My idea thus far is to add panels–either on or perpindicular to–the ceiling to both keep the noise from my upstairs neighbor (important!) and to generally reduce the echo in the room. I’m also adding soft surfaces wherever possible (ie cloth or sound-absorbing material on the walls/windows), and looking to reduce the noise of the a/c to keep it from making people speak over it.
If you have any thoughts, I would love to hear them.
Thanks,
Michael
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Michael,
Thank you for the E-mail and the comments about the blog stuff. 
I’m not sure exactly which articles that you found and read but I want to make sure that we start on the same page so we don’t get confused. You mention that you want to control sound within the bar AS WELL AS blocking it from making it’s way upstairs. These are two COMPLETELY different things. Eliminating the echo and reverberation is going to be really quite easy, but blocking the sound is always a lot more involved and will require altering the floor/ceiling assembly. Please keep in mind that the low frequencies / bass frequencies are likely going to make it upstairs much more than the mid and high frequencies no matter what you do.
So, with that said, let’s talk about blocking the sound first. Please keep in mind that blocking sound can be tricky and in order to do this successfully it needs to be done correctly. This is always a slippery slope because one very small leak can shoot the whole assembly in the foot. The most effective way to keep the sound out is to rip out the floor of the upstairs neighbor and put down some kind of underlament. I realize that this is just about always impossible, but I feel it’s important to note. For treating the ceiling of your bar, I would suggest at least looking at the RSIC-1 clip system. This system is designed to “float” a new sheetrock ceiling so that the ceiling is suspended by rubber and not “touching” the structure above. The cliff notes for the installation are: locate the joists, screw the clips into the joists, run a hat channel / furring channel perpendicular to the joists and screw the new layer of sheetrock to the channel. After the ceiling is in place, use an acoustical sealant and seal up the 1/8-1/4” airspace that you left between the new sheetrock ceiling and the walls, tape, mud and paint.
Treating the echo and reverberation within the bar is MUCH easier to do and I would be happy to put a couple of quotes together and send you some product samples if you would like. Although I don’t even pretend to be an interior designer, a lot of times a few digital pictures of the space are a great help for me to make a few product suggestions so if you have the ability to send a few, that would be great. Without knowing too much about the room, my first two suggestions are the Echo Eliminator panels and the Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass panels. These two options are going to have their respective advantages and disadvantages and I will do my best to quickly go thru them. Performance wise, these will both do the same job- and both are very absorptive. The Echo Eliminator panels are made from recycled cotton fiber and are probably some of the most cost effective, Class A panels on the market. They are in stock in 2’x4’ panels and are usually shipped out in boxes via UPS ground. They easily adhere directly to the walls or the ceiling and are very easy to install. We have nine different colors to choose from. The disadvantage of the panels is that they are not the most decorative or aesthetically pleasing of the panels we can supply. The look kind of like a 1” thick piece of felt. With that said, considering you have 18’ ceilings, I would HIGHLY doubt that anyone would be able to tell that they weren’t “decorative” panels if they were installed on the ceiling.
The Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass panels are all custom made so we can make whatever size and color panels you want. The biggest piece of fiberglass that we can get is 4’ x 10’, so that is the limitation on the size. We use acoustically invisible fabric so that the sound makes it into the fiberglass behind it. These are probably the most finished looking and aesthetically pleasing option that we have but considering they are all custom built (by hand) they are also some of the most expensive. Also, because of the size, fragile nature, and the weight, they have to be shipped in plywood crates on the back of a semi-truck which is clearly more expensive than UPS. In order to price these, I would need to know the size and quantity of the panes that you wanted because different amounts of labor and scrap generated by the sizes will affect the price.
As far as thickness goes, I would probably suggest the 1” thick panels to get the most absorption for the dollar. If you have a significant amount of bass/low frequencies in the bar, the 2” would be a good option but this choice depends on the types of sounds that you are looking to absorb. Please keep in mind that absorption and blocking are two completely different things. To help people visualize this, I like to use the example of two fish tanks. For the first fish tank, you construct the walls made out of sponges. For the second fish tank you construct the walls out of glass. If you fill them both, what happens? The sponges absorb the water, but let it right thru. The glass doesn’t absorb any water but blocks it. The same thing happens with sound. Soft, light, fluffy surfaces (cotton, fiberglass, foam) absorb sound but do not block it. Air tight barriers like sheetrock or vinyl or concrete have a significant amount of mass and no air leaks so they do a decent job at blocking the sound but do not absorb it. Clearly it’s more complicated than that but hopefully you get the idea.
If you would like to talk about this or correspond in greater detail, please feel free to call or E-mail me. Pictures of the bar along with the address would be awesome! I would be happy to put some product samples and literature into a box and send them to you so you could physically see this stuff. If we end up taking care of the problem for you, and I’m ever in New York, I will definitely have to swing in and have a couple of beers and check it out.
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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05.07.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction at 9:07 am by Ted W
So, I’m sitting at my desk one day happily making my way thru my afternoon at the office when in comes an E-mail from a really good friend of mine on the west coast… “Hey - I need some acoustical work done! We built a new addition to our Bike Shop and it’s all rattle-y and echo-y in there. Can you charge me an exorbitant amount to fix my problem, please? What info would you need from me to get moving? Or, do I need to find someone local? Shakka, Bra.” He says. In my reply I asked him for the measurements of the space along with a few photos which would help me better understand the room that he was dealing with. He sent them along with “Attached is my totally awesome diagram of room dimensions and a couple pictures. Let me know if you need more pictures or of different details. Essentially, the room is a trapezoid - a square with one edge that goes out diagonal to elongate the store front on one end. It has 14.5 ft tall ceilings. Let me know what else you need? Thanks!”
After a few more E-mails back and forth, I have a pretty good idea of the sound problem he is trying to fix. I’ve seen this before. Many retail locations built recently take advantage of the industrial look of an exposed concrete floor and an exposed metal roof deck. It’s a raw, hip look but the unfortunate result is awful acoustics and a terrible echo. If any kind of background music is being played or any work is done that generates much noise at all, the sound pressure VERY quickly fills the space and creates an uncomfortable work environment.
After putting together a box of potential product samples and literature, store manager Leif took over as my point of contact for the project. Leif asked many good questions about the relative difference between products, cost, colors, location, type of installation and mounting type. The owner of the bike shop wanted to get the panels installed near the ceiling of the shop and had a few different ideas about exactly how that was going to be done. “… I actually met with our owner yesterday and, as we speak, am investigating some ways to hang the soundproofing. He doesn’t want to glue it to the ceiling but we’re looking affixing it to a rigid board. We’d hang it between the steel beams where it would have been glued anyway but just below the ceiling itself. If the new cost of some extra materials clears we should be getting things rolling –pretty soon. We wouldn’t need the spray adhesive as we’d glue all the pieces to panels on the ground prior to hanging. Have you ever seen something like this done?” and “Hey Ted, I know you’re a busy man. Thanks for the samples I have a few last minute questions and would like to get some sound damping on the way. 1. How much does it add to the cost to have you install grommets? I assume it’s per grommet. Can we get up to 4 installed or was it just two or three. 2. Is there a significant difference in sound damping characteristics between the one and two inch material? Is the main reason for 2 the installation method? 3. Is it still realistic to be able to have these here by mid feb? We have a women’s night, as I mentioned on the phone, that we are REALLY hoping to have them up for. I’ll get back to you tomorrow on a finalized color choice. Thanks again Ted for your time and consideration,”
One very important factor that I always bring up when a baffle installation is considered is the fire suppression sprinkler system in the room. If the baffles are installed in a location where they are going to inhibit the throw and coverage of the sprinklers, not only is that type of installation not safe for the potential occupants of the room, the fire marshal would likely require removal and relocation of the panels. I made this very clear and it was decided that grommets would be installed along the 4’ side of each panel on site with tools that are available at the local hardware store. The final product choice was our 1” thick, Burgundy Echo Eliminator panels which are made from recycled cotton fiber. A few important factors that made this a good choice were the economical cost for the product, the high acoustical absorption of the panels, the availability of nine different colors, and the fact that the panels were in stock. The bike shop was hosting a woman’s night and the goal was to have the panels installed for the event. A few days after I shipped the panels I received the following E-mail:
“Hello all, I’m pleased to announce that we have installed the echo reducing material as planned in our North Pro Room. With some hard work and a lot of hours we were able to get the whole room accomplished in ONE DAY! I had great volunteer help from Lance, Gavin, and Andreas and used our orange “scaffolding” a tall ladder and a pre-planned attack to make it happen pretty efficiently. Attached are some pictures. The echo has been eliminated and the sound quality during normal conversation is remarkably improved. The material adds a nice look and a new dimension to the room. –Leif”
If you have any questions or need any information about any of the products or applications discussed in this article, please feel free to contact me. I would be happy to do my best to help you. Ted Weidman, Acoustical Surfaces, Inc. 123 Columbia Court North, Suite 100 Chaska, MN 55375 p. 800.527.6253 f. 952.448.5300 or e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
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04.17.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction, Churches / Houses of Worship at 10:01 am by Ted W
Hello,
I am a systems integrator in Volusia County, Florida and would like a quote from you with regards to treating a space I\’ve been asked to fix.
It always amazes me when people spend the money to build a room without any regard to the acoustical consequences.
This is one such room.
This room is approx 60 feet long by 40 ft wide and the side walls go to 23 ft with a pitch up to the center ceiling of 24 ft. The reverb decay time is roughly close to 10 seconds and speech is indistinguishable. The floor is concrete. the ceiling is dry wall and the walls are block concrete.
This room will be used for overflow congregation from the church and also serve as a gym which will be outfitted with basketball hoops on each end.
The first thought in ways to reduce the reverb time would be to treat the wall surfaces with acoustical carpet glued directly to the wall.Secondly deploying acoustical clouds hanging from the ceiling to address floor to ceiling echos.
An alternate consideration would be to line the wall surfaces with 1 inch hard fiberglass (Owens Corning 703) covered with fabric backed with luan or a thin sheet of plywood for rigidity. These panels (4 x 8 ft) would be installed on the walls, possibly starting up at around 7 ft to the ceiling. This alternative would most likely prove costlier than the initial approach.
Please share your insight as to how you’d treat this situation.
Thanks,
J.G.
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J.G.,
Thank you for the E-mail. Wow, that room looks like it was designed to BE an echo chamber! 
Isn’t it amazing that these rooms are built and then the acoustics are considered. For this one, I’ve got a very straight forward approach that has worked in every instance where it was used.
I’ve been asked “How many panels do I need” enough times that I figured that there had to be a relationship between the size/volume of a room an the number of panels that made people comfortable in that room because in a gym or a swimming pool one might need a few hundred panels but in an office or a classroom one might need only a handful.
Here is the equation:
Cubic volume x 3% = square footage of panels
So, for this room:
60 x 40 x 23.5 (average ceiling height) = 56,400
56,400 x 0.03 = 1,692
This room needs ~1,690 square feet of panels.
I would probably start by installing some kind of acoustical panel onto the ceiling of the room. I really like the ceiling for rooms like this because if they are used as a gym, by the time a basketball gets up there it has probably slowed down pretty considerably. Also, the panels might tend to be a little bit less distracting on the ceiling than they would on the walls. This, however, is just my opinion and the panels can actually be installed anywhere in the room and have the same affect on the space. If the church feels like the walls are a better choice, the acoustical result will be just about identical. For this type of room, we are just looking to “take the edge off” so the exact location is not critical. The square footage is the thing that should be considered the most.
Another thing that I run into all the time for projects like this is that the budget to fix the problem is quite lean, and understandably so. Building is expensive. I usually send out three product samples for churches in situations like this to consider. They include:
Echo Eliminator
Sound Silencer
Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass panels
Before getting too involved in the details, in just about every installation, the Echo Eliminator panels are the panels that people end up purchasing for a few reasons. First is the cost. These are some of the most cost effective, Class A rated acoustical panels on the market. They are also some of the most absorbent. They are not the most aesthetically pleasing panels in the world, nor are they the most abuse resistant, but if they are put on the ceiling or high up on the walls, you are so far away from them when you’re standing on the ground, that you are not likely to notice anyway. Now, when you’re holding them in your hand it’s another story, but people don’t usually consider that they will be mounted at a pretty significant distance.
The Sound Silencer panels are much more impact resistant, but are twice the cost and half as acoustical. The Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass panels are MUCH more decorative looking and just as absorbent, but they are probably three or four times the cost as the Echo Eliminator panels. Most people who are sitting in a church board meeting looking at samples REALLY want to go with the Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass option, but when they compare the quotes, it’s usually not in the budget.
If you wouldn’t mind, I would like to add this to my blog to hopefully help people in a similar situation. It would really help if I could include one of the pictures of the inside of the room, but it’s not totally necessary. If you would be ok with that, please let me know, but don’t feel any pressure.
If you have questions or if you want me to put together any product samples, literature, or if you would like a quote, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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03.31.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction, Schools / Classrooms, Industrial at 10:07 am by Ted W
A.B. Writes:
I own a dog training center located in a 2400 sq ft warehouse with 30 foot ceilings and a large garage door.
Very echoey and when dogs bark it is painful.
and, A.S.
Dogs Lots of dogs barking. There are up to 140 dogs in our 12,500 sf building. There is a concrete wall that divides the building and most of the barking is on one side. The sound does permeate the building. Noise is a problem in the 2000sf class room both barking and echo. There are 3 concrete walls and one sound rock wall.We have rubber floors which help but concrete walls and 20 foot ceilings.
The ceilings are wood.
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A.B.,
Thank you for the E-mail. I have been getting quite a few inquiries about kennels, animal hospitals and training facilities lately, so I think I am going to use this as an entry on my blog to hopefully help others in similar situations. Your situation is a bit unique due to the extremely high ceilings which is both good and bad and I will do my best to explain why.
In these types of rooms one will find a handful of similarities – the three most important of which are large rooms, hard surfaces and loud noise sources. Whenever these three things are combined, occupants are going to experience painful headaches and significant discomfort. Treatment is a must. The best product and location of that product is usually dictated by the type and measurements of the room. In this case, because of the ceiling height, there are a few more options than if the ceiling were lower and the panels would be subject to being washed to clean the space.
A really nice thing about acoustical treatment is that the location and orientation of the panels has little affect on their performance – so one can usually put the panels where ever they either look the best, are the most inconspicuous or wherever they are the most out of the way. In rooms like this where one is just looking to “take the edge off” or reduce the overall reverberation and echo of the room, it is usually the most advantageous to space the panels out evenly throughout the room so that the result is an even acoustic rather than one corner or side of the room being more reflective than another. But, let’s say that we had two rooms that were identical and we took, let’s say, 300 panels and put them on the ceiling of “room A” and the walls of “room B”. If you or I were in either of the rooms with our eyes closed, it is VERY unlikely that we would be able to tell which room we were in going only by the reverberation of the room. This leaves a lot of freedom for you to decide exactly where you are going to put the panels.
Now that I’ve covered where, let’s talk a bit about how many panels you need. I’ve been asked this question enough times that I have been able to come up with a pretty simple equation to help people get the ball rolling. This equation is not guaranteed and I can not say that it will be exactly the number of panels that you will need, but it is simply a starting point. I will tell you that every time an end user has used this, they have always been happy with the result. The equation: Multiply the cubic volume of the room (height x width x depth) by 4% (.04), you are left with the square footage of panels needed.
For instance, in this case, the room is: 2,400 square feet x 30’ ceilings
Cubic volume = 72,000
72,000 x .04 = 2,880
So, this room needs ~2,880 square feet of panels to get you down to a very comfortable reverberation time.
(this is 360 2’ x 4’ panels)
And, A.S.’s Room
For instance, in this case, the room is: 12,500 square feet x 20’ ceilings
Cubic volume = 250,000
250,000 x .04 = 10,000
So, this room needs ~10,000 square feet of panels to get you down to a very comfortable reverberation time.
(this is 1,250 2’ x 4’ panels)
Please understand that this is an approximate number and you very well might be able to get away with even half of this quantity. There is nothing at all wrong with installing a certain number of panels into the space and then revisiting the problem. You can always go back and install more panels if you want to take it down even further, but what I don’t want to have happen is that you get so few panels (relative to the size of the room) that the acoustic in the room does not change. This is a huge space and will require a good amount of treatment to start to make a difference.
Alright, let’s talk about product and installation.
There are two types of acoustical treatment that are designed to introduce absorption: wall/ceiling panels or baffles. Wall and ceiling panels are products that are to be glued directly to the walls or the ceiling of the room – pretty straight forward. The only “trick” that want to suggest for this type of installation is that if the panels are spaced apart – rather than installed edge-to-edge, you can actually increase the overall absorption in the room by ~30%. This happens because sound is able to enter thru the edges of the panels along with the front. More exposed absorptive surface area = more absorption. The other installation method is a baffle type where the panels are hung from mounting locations along one edge – like a flag. If 200 wall panels are compared to 200 baffles, the baffle installation will out perform the wall panels, again because of the increase in overall surface area. Sound is able to hit the front, all four sides as well as the back of the panels. The only two downsides to a baffle type installation is that if there is a fire suppression sprinkler system in the room and the baffles are hung in areas that will block the throw of the sprinklers, the fire marshal will not allow it and it is not safe for the occupants. The other thing to consider is that the installation time is likely going to increase because each panel has to be hung individually.
All products out there are going to have their respective advantages and disadvantages. I will do my best to explain each. I am always happy to send out actual product samples and literature, so if you want to see these or any of our other products, please feel free to contact me.
In a room like this with such high ceilings, I would strongly suggest considering the Echo Eliminator panels: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/echo_eliminator/wall_panel.htm?d=0 These are “boards” of recycled cotton fiber that come as 2’x4’ panels. They can very easily be glued directly to a wall or ceiling with a construction adhesive – or grommets can be pounded thru one edge and they can be hung as a baffle. They are one of the most cost effective, class A and acoustically absorbent products on the market right now.
Another option that is much more common in rooms with lower ceilings is the Sound Silencer panels: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/sound_silencer/sswall_panel.htm?d=2 This is a board made from a polypropylene bead board. The main advantage to this type of product is that it can be cleaned much easier than the cotton panels above. This panel can be washed off with a hose or even hit with a power washer if needed. These panels are about twice the cost of the cotton panels and absorb about half of the sound, so that is clearly a major difference.
There are a few other options out there, but considering all of the jobs that I have done throughout my years here, these are definitely the two most common. Please feel free to check out our website for a full list of the products that we have to offer. There are a LOT of products there, so if you feel overwhelmed, please call me and I will do my best to pick out a few that may be the most relative. If you have ANY questions or need any additional information, please feel free to contact me.
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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03.27.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction, Office Acoustics at 10:30 am by Ted W
Hello – I could use some recommendations on what is needed to reduce echo in my company board room. The room dimensions are 24’2” x 22’4” with 16’6” ceiling. I would like to know if ceiling or wall baffles would be more effective, or a combination of both, as well as how many are needed. I need a solution that does not clash too much with the room.
Thanks,
M.H.
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M.H.,
Thank you for the e-mail. Taking the edge off of the echo in the room is really going to be a pretty easy thing to do because there are a number of product options for you to choose from. With the dimensions and pictures provided, I am happy to make some recommendations in terms of how many panels or baffles to install as well as the advantages and disadvantages of each product.
First, I want to go thru quantity and location. There is not necessarily a right or a wrong way to treat a room and getting it exactly right is going to take a little bit of faith as well as a bit of trial and error. I have been asked to advise people on how many panels they will need for their room SO many times, that I have come up with a pretty simple way to at least get the ball rolling. I figured that there had to be a relationship between the number of panels that made people happy and comfortable in a room relative to the size of the room because in a gym or swimming pool, one might need a couple hundred panels, but in an office, only a handful might be required.
So, with that in mind, I have come up with the following equation. Cubic volume x 3% = square footage of panels needed.
For instance, considering your room size:
24’ x 22’ x 16.5’ ceilings = 8,712 cubic feet
8712 x .03 = 261
This room needs ~260 square feet of treatment.
With that in mind, we can start talking about location and type of installation. There are basically two types of installations. Flush mounting where the panels are installed (usually glued) to the walls or the ceilings or Baffles where the panels are hung from one edge like a flag or banner. Generally speaking, a baffle-type installation is a more effective way to introduce absorption into the room than a flush mount, but there is one main factor that needs to be discussed. If this room has a fire suppression sprinkler system and a baffle hanging from the ceiling will block the intended throw (coverage) of the sprinkler system – then a baffle installation is going to put you in violation of fire code. Clearly, that won’t work. So, if this room does not have a sprinkler system or the sprinklers are below the bottoms of the proposed baffles, go for it! I would probably get the fire marshal on board during the design process to make sure that all rules of safety are observed.
As far as location goes, there is a surprising amount of freedom here. Generally speaking, as long as the panels or baffles are installed evenly throughout the room, they will have generally the same affect on the acoustic of the room once all of the panels are installed. This basically means that you have the freedom to install the panels wherever you feel they will either look the best or be the most inconspicuous. If one had two identical rooms and 260 square feet of panels were installed on the walls of room A and the ceiling of room B, it would be extremely difficult for the average person to determine which room they were in if they had their eyes closed. This type of approach should not be used for high-end recording rooms or media rooms, but for offices and schools where one is looking to “take the edge off” or simply to reduce the echo, it works just fine.
As far as product goes, there are quite a few choices. All absorptive panels are going to have their respective advantage or disadvantage as I said earlier. I will do my best to explain each.
The Echo Eliminator (http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/echo_eliminator/wall_panel.htm?d=0) is one of the most popular products that we have to offer and that has everything to do with the cost. This is one of the most absorptive and cost effective panels on the market. It is made from recycled cotton fiber and looks and feels kind of similar to a panel made of felt. It is available in nine different colors and is generally sold in 2×4 panels. It is Class A fire rated and can either be glued up to walls or ceilings with a construction adhesive or grommets can be pounded thru it and it can be hung like a baffle. Dollar spent for absorption increased, this is one of the best value panels. However, the most common reason that it is turned down is because it is not as “decorative” or “finished looking” enough.
Another very possible panel is the Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass panels(http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/fabric_panel/fpswallp.htm?d=4). These panels start as 4×8 or 4×10 boards of compressed fiberglass. They are cut to the requested size, the edges are treated for aesthetic purposes and they are wrapped with fabric. These are the most decorative and finished looking panels that we have to offer. They are very absorptive and there are countless options when it comes to size and shape as well as color. We have a very extensive list of fabrics to choose from and I can definitely send you samples if you are interested in exploring them. The two factors that might make this a less attractive option are the cost and lead time. Because these panels are cut and wrapped by hand, the cost is relative to the sizes and quantities of the panels ordered. They are always put onto pallets and shipped via an LTL carrier which the cost is also relative to the size of the order and the distance traveled. So, basically for this option you are paying a higher price for a more decorative panel.
Out of all of our options, these are probably the most likely, but if you want to explore others, here are a few links:
WallMate stretch-wall system: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/softwall_monowalls/wallmate.htm?d=22
Sound Silencer: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/sound_silencer/sswall_panel.htm?d=2
Sound Absorbing Foam: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/foam_stop/mel_pyr.htm?d=6
I would be happy to go thru the pros and cons of these three but I think that this has already gotten pretty lengthy and I don’t want to overwhelm you. If you have questions or if you want to discuss the options or the products – or if you want me to box up and send you some samples, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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03.24.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction, Churches / Houses of Worship, Schools / Classrooms at 10:49 am by Ted W
Ted,
Attached are pictures of the area I would like to put sound absorbing material in. It is so noisy in here because there is nothing to absorb the noise. I think it would be easiest to put the material on the ceiling, but I welcome your advice. It’s been a while since we spoke, sorry I took so long to get back to you. I did receive the samples and I’m impressed. Look forward to hearing from you.
S.L.
__________________________________
S.L.
Great, thank you for the pictures. I would like to add a picture of the center and a little write up about it on the soundproofing and acoustics blog that I write, would you be ok with that? I’m sure there are others out there looking to fix the same problem. It’s amazing that such little bodies can make SO much noise!!!
Anyway, the pictures were a great help, thank you for taking the time to send them. Up until a few years ago, my mother had been the administrator for a few daycares for years and years. I had a pretty good idea in mind as to what you were dealing with in terms of room type, but the images were a good confirmation. Because of my familiarity with your types of business, I have a pretty good idea where you are coming from both visually and aesthetically.
As far as products go, the Echo Eliminator really stands out as a potentially VERY good option for a few main reasons. (Here is the link to the page on our website: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/echo_eliminator/wall_panel.htm?d=0) The Echo Eliminator is a panel made from recycled cotton – like a 1” piece of felt. The standard size is a 2’ x 4’ panel and it is available in nine different colors. These panels are very light weight and class A fire rated which are both very important. If something were to happen and a panel were to fall off of the ceiling, because it is simply a sheet of cotton and weights only 2lbs, it could hit a toddler square in the head an not hurt him/her at all.
One thing I have always thought about and wanted to see is a unique and simple type of installation. The cotton is VERY easily cut with a large Fiskars fabric scissors – the ones with the orange handle. I’ve always thought it would be neat to see a center use the scissors to cut the panels into cloud shapes using the three blues and the white colored panels and glue them to the ceiling. If a smaller cloud shape were glued to a bigger one, it might give the form a bit of depth as well. Again, I don’t know of anyone who has ever done this so I’m not positive that it would even look good but I thought iw might be a more inviting look than square or rectangular panels on the ceiling.
To come up with the number of panels that you might need, I would like to get the dimensions of the room from you. I’ve come up with a pretty easy way to at least begin the discussion about the quantity of panels in a room that people have found very successful. If you multiply the height, width and depth of the room to come up with the cubic volume and then multiply that by .03 (3%) the number that you are left with is generally the approximate square footage of panels you want in that room.
For instance, if your room is 20’ x 30’ and has a 9’ ceiling, the equation would look like this:
20 x 30 x 9 = 5,400
5.400 x .03 = 162
This room needs ~162 square feet of panels or approx twenty (2’x4’) panels.
The nice part about acoustics is that the absorptive surface can generally be placed anywhere in the room and have just about the same overall affect on the space. This is a nice luxury because it allows the end user to put the panels where they will be out of reach, look the best or be the most inconspicuous. Most people get the panels spaced evenly throughout the room to create a balanced look and feeling which will help slightly with the even acoustic once the panels are installed. One little trick that usually helps people is that by spacing the panels out – rather than installing them edge-to-edge, you can actually get a little more absorption per panel because the edges absorb sound as well and you end up with a surprising increase in overall absorptive surface area.
I have samples of all of the colors and I would be happy to put a box together and send them to you if you would like. A lot of times, actually seeing the product is a great help and really helps people make a decision. If you would like me to put them together for you or if you have any additional questions or want to talk about the installation, the product, general questions or if you want a quote, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you!
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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03.23.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, Residential, Common Wall living (apartments/condos), "SOUND-PROOFING" a room at 2:18 pm by Ted W
I came across Ted Weidman\’s comment at
http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/blog/?p=71 regarding the flammability and toxicity of MLV. I have not been able to find information on this anywhere else (perhaps I don\’t know where to look), I am wondering if materials used to insulate/soundproof pipes are made of similar materials? We are looking to soundproof a wall in between our very noisy shower pipes and my daughter\’s bedroom, so the idea of using materials that would produce toxic fumes in a fire is a bit disconcerting to me. Thanks!
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Thank you for the E-mail. I would be happy to discuss a few different approaches if you would like, so if you have time to call during the day, please feel free!!!
As far as blocking sound goes, if I could get a bit more information about the specifics of this one, it might help. Or, if you have the ability to take and E-mail a few digital pictures of the area, that might be a HUGE help! :D A picture is worth a 1,000 words, right?
As far as blocking the sound, are you treating the pipes inside of the wall, or do you have the ability to re-do the sheetrock in your daughter’s room? I will assume, for now, that you have opened up the wall and can only treat the area inside of the stud cavity. First of all, I know it sounds terrible, but don’t worry about the fumes in case of a fire. By the time the fire gets inside of the wall, so much other stuff has already burned and produced smoke it is basically a mute point. By this time everyone better already be out of the house and the fire trucks better be spraying. So, as long as the vinyl is IN the wall, it is a safe product to use. If, however, the vinyl was used like wallpaper, and the fire would be able to get to it FIRST, that’s another story.
Ok, with that out of the way, I can start explaining a bit about the product s that you can use to treat the problem. The EXACT product and approach that I would suggest might change depending on the plumbing you are dealing with. You mentioned that you are trying to quiet down some “very noisy shower pipes” so for some reason, I assume you are dealing with old-school cast iron pipes. If this is the case, you can actually quiet them down a LOT by securing them in the wall properly. A lot of noise is created when the pipes move – physically- and hit the wood around them. Even just the vibration of the pipes makes noise and eliminating that can yield some surprising results. You might want to get a plumber or someone with pluming experience involved with that so you are sure to secure them properly as certain other metals will interact with the iron and corrode it quickly.
As far as acoustical treatment goes, I’ve got a few different products that might help and choosing exactly which one/ones for you might take a bit of discussion. Stopping sound and eliminating vibration are basically the same thing. So first, I would try to make sure the pipes are decoupled (not touching) the structure around them. This can be done with a high temp silicon type product or with rubber isolators. This way, when the pipes vibrate, the energy from the vibration doesn’t get into the wall. The second thing to do is to increase the mass / density that exists between the noise source and the potential listener. This is where the vinyl comes in. The vinyl is basically a technology that is designed to replace lead – very dense, heavy stuff. That mass and that density – coupled with the elasticity (rubbery like) vinyl basically turns the noise energy into heat energy as the vinyl resonates and moves. Think of a 5’ tall, super heavy punching bag. The weight of the bag absorbs the punch. If the bag were filled with packing peanuts, the bag would swing all over the place when you punch it.
Rather than wrapping the pipes directly with the vinyl, you are going to need some kind of a decoupler to make sure the vinyl doesn’t touch the pipes. That is done with one of the two following products:
Barrier Decoupler:
http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/noise_barrier/bardec.htm?d=14
Which is also called Pipe Lagging w/ decoupler: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/pipe_noise/piped.htm?d=14
B10LAG/QFA3 Pipe and Duct Lag:
http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/hvac/duct_lag.htm?d=14
Both of these products will do the same thing, but each has it’s respective advantage and disadvantage. If you are concerned with heat and/or smoke developed, I would go with the B10LAG as the fiberglass decoupler has a much higher heat tolerance than the other. I say both because the “Barrier Decoupler” and the “Pipe Lagging with decoupler” is the exact same product. Talk to the owner of my company about that one… They are both intended to be used by wrapping them directly around the pipe and securing them with fasteners like zip-ties and/or tape. Personally, I would use both because once that wall is closed you don’t want that stuff falling down. There is nothing wrong with overkill for installation as long as you don’t zip-tie the stuff so tight that the decoupler compresses and the vinyl touches the pipe.
Why the decoupler? The decoupler basically acts like a shock absorber and allows the vinyl to move and flex VERY slightly as the sound energy hits it. Think about the decoupler like a pillow, and a cell phone on vibrate mode as the sound. If the phone is sitting on your kitchen table and it rings, the vibration easily transfers into the table. If the phone is sitting on a pillow, the vibration energy can’t get to the table because the pillow absorbs it. Same theory in the wall.Both of the products come in rolls that are 54” wide. The lengths as well as the costs vary.
Another product that will help is our Ultra Touch natural cotton fiber insulation. I used this product when I was remodeling a bathroom at a house that I’ve owned. This bathroom was on the other side of the wall from both bedrooms and the wall that the shower/tub was on was against the same wall as the master bedroom. Being in the acoustics/soundproofing industry, of course I was going to do what I could to eliminate the sound transmissoin - so I bought a couple bundles of the Ultra Touch and stuffed it into the stud cavity. It helped tremendously. It is made from recycled cotton rather than fiberglass and has quite a bit more mass and density than fiberglass.
http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/wall_insulation/ultratouch.htm?d=28
As I said, please feel free to call me and discuss the situation.
Thank you!!!
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, Residential, Industrial at 12:26 pm by Ted W
Hello,
I think I found my solution in your web site. Apparently there are many other that can’t stand neighbors noisy air-conditioning units like me. My neighbors unit is right next to a concrete wall and direct line of site to my porch. Also it gets a lot of sunlight.
I would be doing the work around their air-condition.
Can you recommend a product?
Cost?
Should also line the concrete wall?
How much space should I leave between the barrier and the air-condition for air flow.
Adam
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Adam,
Thank you for the E-mail. I do get quite a few inquiries about noisy AC units. I am happy to make product recommendations as well as do my best to walk you thru the important factors and locations for everything, but pricing the thing for you isn’t quite so easy without measurements.
As far as the distance between the AC unit and the wall that you are going to need to build, I would contact the manufacturer of the unit as well as possibly a local contractor who would service the unit if it were needed. It is extremely important to leave enough room around the condenser to allow it to breather and function properly. That is one question that I will not be able to help with and is definitely site specific.
Regarding the design, you are going to need to build some kind of structure or wall system to which the acoustical panels will attach. People commonly construct a small privacy fence or exterior plywood style three-wall enclosure around the unit and leave enough room between the unit and the house to allow for access or put one wall on hinges. There are a few very important things to keep in mind when designing the layout. The first is to eliminate the line of sight path from a listening position and the ac unit. A good rule of thumb is to make the walls one-and-one-half as high as the height of the noise source. So, if you noise source is 4’ tall, your walls need to be at least 6’ tall.
Regarding putting some kind of product on the walls of the house behind the condenser, ABSOLUTELY! Great call. That is the one thing that a LOT of people don’t think about and can significantly reduce the noise level at the listening location. A lot of times the concrete wall acts like a trampoline for the noise and without treatment, the decibel level at the listeners ear can be louder than the sound of the machine! How is this possible? I like to use the example of driving your car in the summer on the highway. You’re driving happily along with your windows down and when you drive into a tunnel or along a cement barrier, it is SIGNIFICANTLY louder than it was when there was nothing around you but farm land. What’s happening here is exactly what is happening with the concrete wall and AC unit. The sound coming out of the back of the unit (the side that faces your neighbor’s house) reflects off of the concrete and heads your way. So, you’re not only hearing the noise coming out of the front of the machine and traveling to your ear, you’re hearing the noises coming out of the front as well as the back of the machine.
As far as products go, there are really only two options and I would strongly suggest one over the other. The first is the Sound Silencer panels which come as a 1” or 2” panel in a 2’x4’ size. These panels will block a minimal amount of sound and work best when they are adhered or screwed to a solid substrate – like a piece of plywood or a concrete board. They will block some sound as well as absorb some echo, but if they are exposed to a significant amount of UV light (sunlight) the foam will start to break down. The other product is much better both in terms of performance as well as longevity. The EXT-BBC-TR-2” is a custom made sound “blanket” made out of an exterior grade Mass Loaded Vinyl noise barrier as well as a fiberglass absorptive panel that is quilted to the noise-source side. We install grommets across the top and bottom of the panels and use an exterior rated Velcro along the vertical seam to attach one panel to the one next to it. This can be easily attached to a privacy-fence or even a chain link fence with standard fasteners. For the wall behind the unit, we can supply only the exterior faced fiberglass panel as you don’t need the noise barrier there – just the absorptive surface. Call me about pricing as the size of the job will be a factor here.
Here are the links to the products:
Sound Silencer panels: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/sound_silencer/sswall_panel.htm?d=2
Exterior Barrier Backed Curtain – 2” fiberglass face: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/curtan_stop/sound_blanket.htm?d=12
Exterior Quilted Fiberglass Absorber: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/curtan_stop/absorptive_curtains.htm?d=12
I would be happy to talk to you about the situation and if you have the ability to take a couple digital pictures of the space and E-mail them to me, that can be a GREAT help! If you can even estimate an approximate size for the enclosure, I would be happy to quote you panels for the walls as well as the panel for the concrete surface behind the machine.
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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03.10.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction, Churches / Houses of Worship at 10:40 am by Ted W
Ted,
I got your name off your Blog on the net. I need help at our church. We have a fellowship building that is 30ft wide x 50ft long and a wood A-frame vault ceiling that is 14.5ft from top to floor (ceramic tile). The noise level is unbearable. What do you recommend we do to help control the noise. Mainly concerned with the voice level than music quality.
If you could provide a few options and pricing that would be great.
Thanks again,
Pat
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Pat,
Thank you for the E-mail. I would be happy to help. Controlling that echo and improving the sound quality is actually not that daunting of a task, thankfully. Basically, we just have to “soften” up enough of the surface area of the room with a wall or ceiling treatment. I can’t even count how many people have had similar inquiries and I have helped quite a few of them and there are three products that always rise to the top.
Each of these products is going to have it’s respective advantage and/or disadvantage and choosing the right one is something I would be happy to help with. I will do my best to explain those here, but PLEASE feel free to contact me if you have questions. Also, I know that everything that happens in a church needs to be reviewed and discussed by committees and samples are an EXTREME help with that discussion – so if you want me to send you physical product samples, just E-mail me the name and address that you want me to use for shipping and I will get them on the way ASAP.
Echo Eliminator recycled cotton panels: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/echo_eliminator/wall_panel.htm?d=0
These are the most cost effective panels on the market. They are in stock and can be shipped in boxes via UPS ground or a semi-truck if the quantity is right. They are available in 2’x4’ panels and install onto the wall or ceiling very easily with construction adhesive. We have nine colors to choose from, all of which are made from recycled cotton. These panels have a surface that looks kind of like felt. The 1” panel is $2.50 per square foot and the 2” panel is $4.50 per square foot. These are a VERY cost effective way to “get the job done” while spending the least amount of money. The most common complaint or issue that people have is the aesthetic. They are not usually “finished enough” looking for people. They are going to look a bit different when they are installed onto the wall or ceiling and you are 20’ away than if you are holding a sample.
Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass panels: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/fabric_panel/fpswallp.htm?d=4
These are some of the most decorative panels that we offer. These panels start as 4×8 or 4×10 pieces of fiberglass. They are cut to size on a per-job basis and the edge is cut for aesthetics and the whole panel is wrapped with fabric. They are put onto pallets and shipped on the back of a semi-truck. The advantage here is the decorative, finished aesthetic and the fact that all you will have to do is open the crate and install the panels onto the wall. The disadvantage is that because of the custom nature of the panels and the labor involved with manufacturing, they are fairly expensive. I prefer to quote these on a per-job basis, but the ballpark cost for the 1” panels is around $7.00 per square foot and the 2” panels tend to be in the $12.00 per square foot range.
WallMate Stretch-wall system: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/softwall_monowalls/wallmate.htm?d=22
This product is becoming one of the most popular solutions for organizations in similar situations. This is a system where we supply the cotton for the acoustics, the fabric for the decorative look and the track to pull the tension on the fabric across the cotton. I usually use the “canvas painting” analogy here. The cotton isn’t a rigid enough substrate to stretch cotton directly across, so usually the track is installed around the perimeter of the panel, the cotton is glued to the wall, and the fabric is installed over the track. The track is a two-part system that snaps shut, and as it’s closed it pulls the tension on the fabric. Most churches have a handful of congregation members who are contractors or generally “handy” people who love stuff like this and are happy to volunteer their time to do the installation. The nice thing here is that I just ship you the pieces and the parts, and you site-fabricate whatever size panels you want. The only limitation on the panel size is the width of the fabric bolt which is 66” on most of the fabrics that we use.
I have a few testimonials with pictures that I would be happy to forward to you if you would like to see them. If you have questions or need any additional information or product samples, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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02.27.09
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, Residential, Common Wall living (apartments/condos), "SOUND-PROOFING" a room at 8:54 am by Ted W
Ted,
I appreciate your help if you take the time to answer my question. I live in a lower income building where the walls are very thin. luckly i only share one wall with my neighboor. I am not suppose to make any alterations to the apartment. However I feel that since i pay the maximum rent which really doesnt save me much money over renting a house here in wv,and put over 600 dollars down for a security deposit I should do as I feel.
To the problem…. I know you said that most people worry about ‘’the aesthetic'’ of the place. In my case I could care less . It would be great if I could hang something from the wall using a massive amount of plastic ‘’picture hangers'’ adhesive hangers or whatever name they go buy. Also I could use nails I just know its going to be a slightly bigger clean up before I leave. If I can make something that is easly moveable that will insulate the wall from noise that is great. If not then I guess they can just complain when they come to inspect. My question is do you know of any really good materials to use , if its similiar to a mat that i can pull on and off that is great. The wall isnt very large it only has one obstacle which is a guard rail. but it does span the downstairs and upstairs. So I would be willing to put a good bit of money into it to get the best quality.
Thanks for any ideas you can give me .
R.C.
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R.C.,
Thank you for the E-mail. Unfortunately blocking sound is a bit more of a tricky problem than is absorbing echo within the room. Basically there are two ways to block sound, one is to increase the amount of mass and density that you have between space A and space B, and the other is to de-couple the wall assembly – or build two separate walls that don’t touch each other. The decoupled wall will out perform the wall where only mass is added to the wall.
The difficult thing about blocking sound is that the products to do that are always found INSIDE of the wall assembly – covered with sheetrock. The BEST way to block the sound would be to add the RSIC-1 clip assembly to the wall and “float” another piece of sheetrock, but it doesn’t sound like this is a possibility in this case.
Another product that would help but require an additional layer of sheetrock is a product called Green Glue. This is what they call a viscoelastic damping compound which helps eliminate sheetrock from vibrating or resonating. Kind of like putting your fingers on a drum symbol or a bell to reduce the sound that is being made by either, this stuff does the same thing to sheetrock. It’s not an adhesive, but it is like a tube of elastic that goes between an existing layer of sheetrock and a new layer. You still have to screw thru this second layer, back into the studs for structural support, but it will help.
The NEXT step would be to explore the option of hanging the “BSC-T25” Acoustical Quilted Curtain panels over the entire wall. This is not a “curtain” in the traditional sense of the word. The are not light, flowing pieces of cloth that pleat up like a hospital curtain. In the center of these panels, there is an 1/8” thick, 1lb per square foot layer of Mass Loaded Vinyl which is a decent noise barrier. On either side of the vinyl, we install a nominally 1” thick piece of fiberglass and then wrap the whole thing in a heavy duty vinyl. We install grommets across the top edge and would attach a vertical Velcro section to attach one panel to the next to make a wall with no air penetrations in it. These panels are VERY heavy but could be hung from very stout screws or hooks anchored into the header behind the sheetrock. The unfortunate part about these is that because they are made by hand, they are fairly expensive at around $13.00 per square foot. If you have the dimensions of the walls you want to cover, feel free to send them to me and I can get a quote together for you.
The only other temporary option that I have, I would not recommend for a few reasons. The product is called Mass Loaded Vinyl and is the exact same vinyl (the same stuff in the center of the BSC-T25 panel above). It is a noise barrier and might help, but there are a few MAJOR concerns that I would be concerned with. The first is the fact that the product is a class C fire rated product which means that it does not suppress flame spread and WILL produce toxic fumes if it catches on fire. Basically, the smoke will kill a person before they can get out of the room – clearly not good. Additionally, it is a vinyl based product that will have a significant amount of off-gassing. If you’ve ever hung a new plastic shower curtain or an inflatable air mattress and smelled the “plastic smell”, these will be many, many times worse and last for a LONG time. Two other things that is going to make this a fairly poor choice is the fact that when, like plastic wrap for a plate of food, when it tears, it wants to continue to tear, so mounting can be challenging. Lastly, if there are any air gaps in the vinyl (due to the lack of the vertical Velcro seams) the product is VERY quickly short circuited. A 5% air gap in the vinyl wall will leak 90% of the sound thru it.
PLEASE do not attempt to put up any kind of foam on your wall or cut holes into the stud cavity and fill the wall with insulation!!! These approaches will do absolutely NOTHING at all for you. They are two of the most common misconceptions that I deal with every day. Putting foam on your walls will likely make the problem of a noisy neighbor WORSE because it will make your room(s) even quieter. Consider a library. The ambient (background) noise in a library is extremely low. Because of this, you are able to hear someone whisper from a considerable distance. Now consider a loud cafeteria. You nearly need to scream across the table just to be heard because the ambient noise is so high. The quieter the ambient noise in your room, the easier it will be for you to hear noises from coming in from adjacent dwellings.
I hope I have not discouraged or overwhelmed you too much. I get calls and E-mails from people in similar situations all the time, and it is a difficult part of my job. We have products that can likely help, but because of the type of dwelling, most of the solutions are not possible. The sad thing about the situation is that buildings like yours are likely put together with cost and speed in mind during construction and the result is the “paper thin wall” syndrome. They won’t let you do anything to fix it, but they will continue to take your hard earned rent money. If I had a cheap, easy solution to this I could probably retire.
If you have any questions or need any additional information, please feel free to call or send me a reply E-mail. If you don’t mind, I would like to add this to the BLOG to hopefully help others find answers to their quest to fix a problem. Would you be ok with that?
Thank you,
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
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