08.20.08
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Industrial at 7:35 am by Ted W
Came across your excellent website using a google search. I happen to be a contractor, and this is for a situation at my own offices. We have a boiler that is located in a separate room, but more or less in the center of our offices. The room is masonry and it has a fire rated door. I would like to install sound absorbent materials on the interior side of the block in the boiler room, as well as on the interior of the metal door to lessen the boiler sound that currently escapes from the room. Therefore, I need a product that can be somehow adhered. And while there is no open flame, due to the nature of the room I would prefer to use something that is not an outright fire hazard.
Your suggestions and assistance will be greatly appreciated.
H.S.
Wantagh, NY
______________________________________________________________
H.S.,
Thank you for the E-mail. I only have a few products that will both absorb echo as well as block sound transmission. I will do my best to go through the basic idea of blocking sound and explain how each panel works, but if you have questions, please feel free to call. All of the products that I am going to suggest are Class A/1 Fire rated, and would adhere directly to the wall with adhesive. I would be happy to quote any or all of these options for you if you could let me know the square footage needed as well as your address.
Boiler or mechanical rooms are generally pretty noisy places. Not only are you going to have multiple noise sources but one will almost always find that these are rooms made up of all hard surfaces. The sound from the machines has no where to go, and the sound waves will just bounce from surface to surface. Believe it or not, the sound pressure in the room can actually be greater than the sum of all of the sound being made by the machines because of these reflections. So, I would suggest a product that will not only help the existing wall block the sound from leaving the room, but also absorbing the reverberation inside of the room itself.
The first and most effective is the Melamine Composite acoustical panels. These panels are made from the standard acoustical foam that pretty much everyone is familiar with. In the center of these panels is a layer of Mass Loaded Vinyl noise barrier which is basically a technology that has been designed to replace lead. As the sound wave hits the dense vinyl, it will move or vibrate the vinyl slightly turning the sound energy into heat energy which is how the sound is “blocked.” These panels have an STC (sound transmission coefficient) rating of 27, which basically means that they stop 27dBa from passing through them. This rating is an average of high, mid and low frequencies but please keep in mind, the lower the frequency, the easier it is for the sound to make it’s way through pretty much anything you put in front of it. The melamine composite panels also have a soft foam surface which will help reduce the echo and reverberation in the room. The NRC (noise reduction coefficient) of these panels is .85 which means that essentially eighty-five percent of the sound that hits the surface will be absorbed. A ballpark price for the melamine composite panels is $11.00 per square foot.
Another panel that you might want to consider is the Sound Silencer panels. These are a panel made from a polypropylene bead board, and although they are more cost effective than the previous option, they are also slightly less effective. Here is the data for the product:
Thickness: 1” 2”
STC: 9 13
NRC: .45 .70
Cost p.s.f. $4.50 $6.50
One other potion is the Echo Eliminator Composite panels. This is a cotton based panel with an aluminized mylar facing on one side. The NRC is .90 and the STC is 17. Ballpark cost is $6.00 per square foot.
The panel that will be the best option for you basically depends on what you need acoustically as well as the budget that you have for the project. I would be happy to talk to you about the products and even get some product samples and literature out to you. All of the blue links above will take you to the respective web pages on my site, and at the bottom of each page you will find a PDF icon that will bring up a printer-friendly format of all of the product information.
Again, thank you for the E-mail and please feel free to contact me.
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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08.15.08
Posted in Soundproofing at 6:42 am by Ted W
Hi Ted,
We found your informative blog while doing a Google search for idea to solve our problem and we were wondering if you might be able to help us with some suggestions? We’re at a loss for what to do. The problem is…recently, our neighbors, who themselves, do not have any A/C or window units, keep their old windows (i.e. they are not storm windows so do not have much sound insulation) open during the hot Boston summers. My husband and I live in a 2-family house. Our larger unit has 2 A/C units and the people in the 1st unit has one (please refer to attached pictures). According to our neighbors, whose bedroom window on the 2nd floor immediately faces all 3 A/C units, make a lot of noise which is bothersome at night when they are trying to sleep.
I tried to attach some pictures so that you might be able to get an idea of our situation but they wouldn’t go through to your email. We’d greatly appreciate any suggestions! And of course, we’re looking to be cost effective.
Many thanks for reading this email! We hope to hear from you at your earliest convenience.
Cheers,
Jeanne & Paul
Jeanne,
This is going to be a tough one. I say this because of the space that we don’t have (in this case) around the AC units. I will do my best to explain how I see the situation, but please feel free to contact me or shoot me a reply E-mail. By the way, thank you for the pictures, they are an incredible help!!! By the way, sweet Porsche. : )
I quickly did some photo-shopping to your picture, see the attached image. Even though it is a crude representation, the blue lines show the path of the sound. In this case, you not only have the sound that is going directly from the AC unit to your neighbors window, but you also have the sound coming out of the top and the back of the unit, bouncing off of the house and making its way to their window. This is such a narrow space with all hard and parallel surfaces, the sound just keeps bouncing from house to house and has no where to be absorbed. So, if you think about it, the sound that your neighbor hears could possibly be as if you had 2 or 3 times the amount of equipment out there running because they are hearing the direct noise as well as noise from two or three different reflection points.
Fixing the situation, like I said, is going to require some creative thinking. I am not an HVAC contractor, so you will likely need some outside consultation on this one, but I do know that these condenser units need a certain amount of room around them to function properly. You don’t want to put something too close and have it destroy the machine – so make sure to find out what that distance is for all three units so they can breathe. In order to reduce the noise that your neighbor is hearing you are gong to need to do two things. First would be to interrupt the line of sight path of sound transmission. This is going to mean building a “wall” or a structure high enough so that they can not look out their window and see the units. Due to the angle and the distance here, that might be hard to do. Furthermore, the wall is going to be a certain distance from the units, which I am guessing would be past the side walk, and out in the grass – making the sidewalk INSIDE of the wall would work, I guess, if the wall near the gutter in the picture was not there… The second thing would be to take away the reflective surface behind the units by covering up the siding with some kind of absorptive blanket so that the sound is not going to be able to bounce off of the house and over the wall.
I will attach a few pictures of an installation that I did for a customer earlier this summer. In his case, the fence was already there, and he had a LOT more room to work with, but it will give you an idea of what I am trying to illustrate. Ideally, the height of the wall that you want to build is two-times the height of the noise source, but in this case, due to the height of the window.
I would suggest one of the three following products. The first two are going to perform better than the last one as well as last a lot longer outside, but they will both help. They will all need some kind of a structure to which they are to be attached, but the structure options will vary depending on which product(s) you think will be the best for the situation.
EXT-BBC-T14-2” – Exterior grade Barrier Backed Curtain.
These are custom made which affects the price, but they are usually around $13.00-$14.00 per square footEXT-QFA-7 as an absorptive panel on the house – Exterior Quilted Fiberglass Absorber-
These are also custom made which affects the price, but they are usually around $6.50-$8.00 per square foot.I don’t have a dedicated webpage for this yet, but should have one shortly. It’s basically ONLY the quilted facing for the EXT-BBC panel above. It’s a “blanket” of 2″ thick fiberglass with a scrim backing and an exterior grade vinyl facing and edge binding.
Sound Silencer – acoustical wall panel. 1” or 2”, and I would only recommend Charcoal as the white breaks down extremely quickly with ultra violet exposure. Panels: 2’ x 4’.
1” Thickness: $4.50 per square foot
2” Thickness: $6.50 per square foot
I hope this helps and is not too confusing. Let me know if you have questions or need any further explanation or a quote.
Thank you,Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.comTed Weidmanweb.
Ted Weidmanweb.
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08.11.08
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, Residential, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room at 10:34 am by Ted W
Hi Ted,
I just discovered your very helpful site. I have a question. We recently purchased a ten year old home that has good quality, double glazed vinyl windows (the operable kind, single hung, vertically opening). We hear traffic noise in our master bedroom, which faces the street and I am looking for a method to reduce it as much as possible. I had thought of buying some heavy fabric roman shades that would fit inside the frames, but doubt that this approach would do much. I am not sure if the sound is is simply being transmitted from the outer pane, through the air space and onto the inside pane or if it is getting through the area where the window slides in it’s frame. Do you have any thoughts on this? I am am a Mechanical Engineer but have no real knowledge in acoustics.
Thanks very much for your thoughts. I hope you can shed some light on this.
G. Powell
Portland
Mr. Powell,
Thank you for the E-mail. Windows can be a little bit tricky, but there are two pretty basic and simple things to keep in mind when you are trying to block sound. I’ll throw you a little curve ball at the end of the E-mail, but want to go through a couple things first.
The two most important things to keep in mind when you are dealing with a sound transmission issue are eliminating ANY common air spaces and increasing the amount of mass/density in between your noise source and a potential “listener.” A 1% air gap in any kind of a noise barrier will leak 30% of the sound from one side to the other, and a 5% gap will allow for a 90% leak. If you consider that sound travels through air, you can quickly see how even a tiny gap will allow for a significant amount of sound transmission. Additionally, the more mass and density that you introduce as a sound barrier, the weaker the pressure wave will be after it passes through the mass.
I have one product for each topic above:
Magnacoustic Wnsert Windows
Acoustical Quilted Curtain
The Magnacoustic window is going to perform the best, be the least visually intrusive as well as the easiest to install. Furthermore, because of the increase in thermal performance of the window, it will also pay itself off in a few years. It is, however, more expensive than the other option. Basically, this system is a “snap into place” window that is held in place by a magnetic bellows system similar to the seal around your refrigerator door. You (or a local installer) will cut and screw a thing metal “L” bracket around the window frame to create a metal surface for the magnets. Inside of the magnetic bellows perimeter will be a ¼” thick piece of clear plastic called Lexan. This plastic is scratch resistant, fairly light weight and will never yellow. The only consideration will be the cleaner used to clean the window when needed, but we can talk about that if needed.
This window was designed to be a re-usable heating and cooling thermal product but because it does such a good job at eliminating any kind of draft or common air space between the inside and outside of the house, we found that it does a very good job at blocking sound as well. The price for each window will depend on the size of the window, but I usually suggest people use a $23-25.00 per square foot ballpark price. Shipping is harder to estimate, and usually the best way to get them to a jobsite is by putting them onto a plywood pallet and sending them on a truck. Estimating performance is also a bit of a hard subject because of the variables involved. The performance of the window will depend on the sound transmission rating of the casement window as well as the decibel level and frequency of the noise source. It will also depend on the ambient level of the room in which the windows are being installed.
The other product that has been used in similar situations is the Quilted Curtain product. This is not a curtain in the traditional sense of the word as it can not be pleated up like a hospital curtain or a min-blind. This is more of a fairly rigid acoustical panel. It originated as an industrial grade product which could be used to enclose a noisy machine in a manufacturing plant or be used as a movable sound wall. It is usually fairly challenging to get it into a residence not only because of the look of the product but also because of the weight. The “active ingredient” in the curtain is an 1/8” thick, 1lb. per square foot Mass Loaded Vinyl noise barrier. On either side of the vinyl, we place a nominally 1” thick piece of fiberglass, and then quilt the whole product in a heavy duty vinyl. We pound grommets through the top of the panels to use as a mounting point. Because these curtains weigh about 1.5lbs per square foot, they are cumbersome and not easy to move. Usually when they are installed, they are left in place all of the time. These are also made on a per job basis, and I usually tell people to ballpark for a $12-14.00 per square foot price.
I hope this helps, but if you have any questions or need a quote for either option, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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07.29.08
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, Residential, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction at 7:37 am by Ted W
Hello,
I have a Greatroom in my house that has a 12′ ceiling and as a result there is a lot of echo from the TV, stereo, or just conversation. I thought maybe I could install some type of ceiling material over the existing drywall that would improve the acoustics of the room while not looking like it has a suspended ceiling. Do you make any product that could be glued to the ceiling that would have a pleasing look and provide me the acoustic quality I am looking for?
T.M.
Conway, SC_________________________________________________________________________________________
Tom,
Thank you for the E-mail. Residential acoustics are difficult because of the aesthetic that one needs to maintain. Surfaces that look like sheetrock are generally hard and will reflect sound. Surfaces that are soft and absorb echo almost always require some creative thinking to get them into rooms such as yours while not looking like an acoustical tile. I will make a few recommendations by including a few links to a few different products below. Once you have had a chance to review them, feel free to contact me with questions. The products listed below are in order of popularity in similar and previous situations – the top product being the most popular.
Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass Panels
Wall Mate stretch-wall system
Sound Silencer wall/ceiling panels
Echo Eliminator wall/ceiling panels
Another question is “how much do I need?” This is ultimately going to be up to you, but my recommendation has worked very well in the past. It is not a guarantee or an absolute, but it is just a starting point to open the conversation. Multiply the height, width and depth of the room to determine the cubic volume of the room. If the ceiling is pitched, average the ceiling height and use that. Then, multiply the cubic volume by .03 (3%). The value that you are left with is the approximate square footage of paneling that you need to install in your room to get you down to a comfortable reverberation time and take out the echo.
Example: If your room is 15’ x 25’ and the walls stop at 9’ and go to 12’ you would use the following equation.
Ceiling: (9 + 12 =21) (21 / 2 = 10.5)
15 x 25 x 10.5 = 3,937.5
3,937.5 x .03 = 118
This room would need approximately 118 s/f of paneling somewhere in the room.
Location is totally up to you, so depending on which product you are looking to install, the location of that product is an aesthetic call. The placement f the product is not dictated by acoustical performance. As long as the sound can hit the panels, they are able to do their job. I would not suggest putting the panels behind a cabinet or entertainment center or even behind artwork. The sound needs to be able to hit the panel and be absorbed.
I would be happy to further discuss the situation with you if you would like. Please feel free to contact me if you have questions or need any additional information.
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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07.24.08
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, Pro Audio / Home Theater, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Schools / Classrooms, Industrial, Office Acoustics at 9:03 pm by Ted W
I have a psychological office in st. Louis. Mostly our clients do not talk loud, however, sometimes our clients are brain injured and they make quite a bit of noise. In other rooms, counseling might be going on. We are in a three story building with regular tiles above, and when we moved in, they put extra insulation over the wall joists, but I knew that wouldn’t do it.
We are getting busier, and I don’t know what to do. I’m thinking of white noise, I don’t know if we have enough money for new tiles, and I don’t think I want to chance the foam stuff that I would put in, instead of landlord, who would probably nix the whole idea. We have four offices that are affected, all about 9X12 or a little larger. Do you have any ideas or persons I could contact in st. Louis? Or types of companies? Or heavy materials that maybe I could put on top of the tiles between the rooms? I feel like I can only whisper when I talk about things/people because they might be able to hear us. Looking forward to your post…
C.C.
St. Louis, MO
Mr. C,
The problem of the sound transmission issue is unfortunately a very common problem. I get calls all the time from people in similar situations who are looking for products to help stop sound traveling from one office or exam room to the other. Confidentiality and patient privacy is extremely important. Many people call me looking for a product to put on the wall, and because I have helped so many people, I start the conversation by asking three main questions.
- Do the offices have the standard drop-in ceiling tiles?
(The answer is almost always yes)
- Does the wall between the offices go all the way up to the roof deck?
(most people don’t know and I tell them to pop out a tile and have a look)
- Are there any air gaps around the door – between the bottom of the door and the floor or around the door jamb. If you don’t know, turn the lights off in the hallway and on in the office and see if any light leaks through.
(Almost all of these doors have fairly significant air gaps)
When most office spaces are constructed, the contractors run the services along the ceiling, install the drop ceiling tiles and build the walls up to the ceiling tiles. From a construction standpoint, this is ideal, but from an acoustical standpoint it couldn’t be worse. The only thing that you have separating two offices that share a common wall are two ceiling tiles that are designed as an aesthetic barrier and to absorb some reverberation. They do not block much sound at all – it is not their job. The sound travels easily through one ceiling tile, over the wall and comes into the other office.
The door to the room is also a significant area for sound to leak into our out of the space. If ANY common air space is shared between one side of the door an the other, sound WILL leak through that gap. A 1% air gap in any kind of a sound barrier will leak 30% of the sound from one side to the other. Furthermore, a 5% air gap (ie: a ¼” gap between the door and the floor) will leak 90% of the sound through. Try it. Close your door and put your ear right where the door meets the door jamb. You might want to lock the door or block it with you foot so someone doesn’t pop you in the head trying to get into the room… Most of the time you will be able to very clearly hear what is being said on the other side of the door.
I’m sure you already have a pretty good grasp on the problem because it sounds like you have tried to take steps to fix it, but unfortunately the “insulation” on top of the ceiling tiles wasn’t quite the right product to do the job. LOTS and lots of people call me and tell me that this was their first step to try to soundproof the offices, but insulation doesn’t block any sound at all – it absorbs echo – but I can go into that later.
You’re probably sitting there saying “On with it… What products do I need!?!?!?”
If I were in your situation, I would order enough Barrier-Decoupler to cover all of the ceiling tiles and a Door Seal Kit to install on the door. You may also want to order a SoundScreen white noise machine. I would be happy to draft a quote for you based on the size of the ceiling, the height and width of the door and the SoundScreen machines are $69.95 each. I will go into the details about the products below.
The Barrier-Decoupler is designed to be a simple noise barrier. The product is 3/8” thick, weighs 1lb per square foot and comes in two different roll sizes (54” x 20’ and 54” x 30’) (90 square feet or 135 square feet). It can easily be cut with a sharp scissors or a razor blade and simply put on the backs of the existing ceiling tiles. This will add a significant amount of weight to the ceiling, so if you have 2×4 tiles, I often suggest adding a T-bar cross beam across the center of the tile so that the existing tile doesn’t bow with the added weight. The Barrier-Decoupler has an STC rating of 26, which means that it stops an average of 26 dBa from passing through it.
The product is made up of a 1/8” Mass loaded vinyl noise barrier adhered to an ¼” polyurethane foam decoupler. The mass and weight of the vinyl is the “active ingredient” and will stop approximately the same amount of sound as a typical wall. The foam is intended to touch the tiles and stand the vinyl off of the tiles and the track. This separation GREATLY improves the performance of the vinyl as it allows the vinyl to move. As the sound wave this the vinyl, because of the mass and density, the vinyl will move very slightly transforming the airborne wave of energy into heat by moving the vinyl. The insulation that you installed does not have much density at all, it is mostly air. Because sound travels through air, sound travels through insulation.
The Door Seal kits are also a good idea when you are trying to stop sound. The kits are a retro-fit product that are designed to install onto the door jamb as well as the door itself. They provide a neoprene gasket to make the seal. The jamb seal is stationary and the door bottom is a spring loaded mechanism that closes to the ground as the door is shut. We offer two different kits – the Standard kit (1/2” thick) and the Heavy Duty kit (7/8” thick). The standard kit is normally installed onto a hollow-core door, and the heavy duty kit generally goes onto a solid core door. The difference is the amount of gasketing that makes the seal.
I commonly tell people to start with the ceiling and the door, and if the problem still exists to call me back and we can re-approach the situation. I rarely hear back from people – which is a good sign. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to sell more product but if the problem is fixed, people and people are happy then I did my job. The nice thing about this is that out of all of the products that I have, these are some of the most cost effective. I like being able to tell people things like “let’s start with the cheapest products and work our way up if we need to.”
The white noise machine is also not a bad idea at all. You want to put this in the room where your “listeners” would be – not in the room where the noise will be made. The white noise machine will raise the ambient noise level in the room so that the sound coming from other areas are harder to hear. The sound that it makes is similar to a small fan or a small space heater running- kind of a whurrr or a hummm, or a combination of both. Each machine covers a space no larger than 12’ x 12’. I could make all kinds of analogies here, but I think I’ve gotten long winded enough.
Again, I would be happy to put a product list together for you, figure out the cheapest way to get it there, and fax or E-mail a quote to you. You have provided me with the measurements of the room, but I would like to get the measurements of the door if that is a route that you want to look into. Unfortunately I don’t have any remote representation, but I have helped out enough people in similar situations that I feel quite comfortable helping you over the phone or E-mail.
If you have any questions or if you want to get any information to me, feel free to call or send me an E-mail.
Thanks and I hope this helps.
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces, Inc
123 Columbia Court North, Suite 100
Chaska, MN
55375
p. 800-527-6253 (ext. 25)
f. 952-448-2613
e.
ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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06.30.08
Posted in Soundproofing at 9:04 am by Ted W
Hi,
I’m looking for the most cost-effective and easy to install sound blocking for a musical range of sound. I have a 2×4 interior wall that I can’t make much thicker than 1 sheet of drywall - currently all sealed up. No bats or insulation. I can take drywall off one side to install something interior OR drill large holes from top plate(non-load bearing) to insert something. Here are my thoughts. Either drill from top and STUFF that newsprint blown-in insulation till capacity and the cover holes with foam and wafer board strips OR rip drywall off one side, spray foam to FILL cavity and double up on drywall on that side.
The wall is 8′ tall, and less than 20′ linear feet long.
Thoughts? Product? Combination of products?
Other better ideas? Experience?
Thanks
Mark
Mark,
Thank you for the E-mail. Unfortunately, to increase the STC rating of your wall, you are going to need to increase the thickness of the wall. It is an incredibly common misconception that insulation inside of a stud cavity will stop sound- and it’s just not the case. Unfortunately blocking sound transmission is going to involve some kind of construction like a new layer of sheetrock to make any kind of a difference at all. I really wish it were as easy as popping some holes into the sheetrock, blowing in some kind of fill between the studs and then patching the holes. I would definitely sell a lot more product and be able to help a lot more people not hear sounds from outside of their space.
Ideally, I would suggest the RSIC-1 Clip system to float the sheetrock off of the wall. This is THE most acoustically efficient and cost effective way to increase the attenuation of a wall assembly. Unfortunately you will loose between 2” – 2 ½” of wall space. If you don’t have that kind of space, I would suggest one of two products. The first would be to install a layer of Green Glue Damping compound on the back of a second layer of sheetrock that would install directly over the existing sheetrock that is on the wall now. This is a newer technology that is designed to act as a layer of elastic between two pieces of sheetrock. It is an effective way to stop sound while not adding too much thickness to a wall. An older, less efficient way is to install a layer of Mass Loaded Vinyl onto the studs and completely cover the wall before you sheetrock. This will increase the mass and density of the wall and will increase the attenuation rate of the assembly. In order to install the vinyl, you will need to remove the sheetrock that exists and install the vinyl directly onto the studs. This product needs the air cavity of the stud wall to be able to move and vibrate in order to do it’s job effectively.
The reason why insulation does not stop sound transmission is because it has very little mass and density- it is mostly air. Sound travels through air, so sound can also easily travel through insulation. Additionally, insulation between studs does not remove the hard-surface to hard-surface path that the sound uses to make it’s way through the wall. When the sound wave this the sheetrock on one side of the wall it transforms into a vibration. That vibration travels from the sheetrock to the stud and on to the sheetrock on the other side of the wall – kind of like electricity. Whenever there is hard surface contact from one side of a wall to the other, there is a path for the sound to travel through. The vibration quickly flanks the insulation via the stud. You will never find a wall cavity “insulation” or “foam” that has an STC rating because it is not intended to block sound.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me. Thank you,
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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06.26.08
Posted in Soundproofing at 9:00 am by Ted W
Hi Ted:
I was reading your blog on your acousticalsurfaces.com website tonight with great interest. I own a new construction steel-framed loft condo in Los Angeles, CA and I am experiencing a great deal of footfall noise from my neighbor above me. All the units have hardwood floors and when my neighbor walks on his floor it sounds like a bass drum every time his feet hit the floor.
I need something that will block this noise as much as possible – the solution has to be close to 95-100% effective otherwise it’s really not worth the cost or hassle for me to do it.
The main concern I have is how to find a contractor that is knowledgeable about your products that could do the work in the Los Angeles area. The ceiling itself contains a few light fixtures, some suspended ducting for heat/AC, fire sprinklers, etc. I assume these would come into play even if only dropping the ceiling an inch or two.
Any insight/advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
- T.H.
Tony,
Thank you for the E-mail- it’s great to hear that people are actually reading my online ramblings. J Right now, its 6:30am your time, so I will try to do my best to put together an E-mail, and if you want to discuss things, feel free to call me when it’s convenient for you.
You are exploring the exact right product- the RSIC-1 clip system. This would be my first suggestion to you for treating such a problem from the bottom up (rather than starting with the floor upstairs). It is, by far, the most efficient and effective way to stop impact sound transmission, but I will tell you that treating the problem once it is into the structure is a slippery uphill slope, and I will try to explain why…
As I’m sure you already know the design of the RSIC-1 clip system is to decouple the finish ceiling from the joists and eliminate the hard surface-to-hard-surface path of sound transmission. As a foot hits the floor, the energy from the impact travels to the sub floor then to the joists and then to your sheetrock and comes out as an airborne sound. If this path is broken up and the sound has to pass across an air space, it looses energy as it makes the conversion – kind of like a bolt of electricity arcing across an air space.
There is only one sentence in your E-mail that makes me nervous. “I need something that will block this noise as much as possible – the solution has to be close to 95-100% effective otherwise it’s really not worth the cost or hassle for me to do it.” Believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about, but unfortunately it is impossible for me to tell you weather or not this is going to be applicable after you go through the trouble and expense of completely re-doing your ceiling and all the services in the joist cavities. The reason why I am nervous is because of two main reasons – the first being that depending on the severity of the problem as it exists now, if the joists are actually bowing and moving considerably, even a decoupled ceiling will still allow sound to pass through it. Additionally, keep in mind that the studs and sheetrock that make up your walls are attached to the same joist structure as the ceiling and if they are moving too, you will also hear noise coming from them. You might not hear it now because the ceiling is transmitting enough noise to drown them out, but you might after the ceiling is “fixed”.
I’m wracking my brain to come up with an analogy that is constant with the clips being used on the ceiling and how a severe problem may be helped by the product, but not completely removed. The only thing that comes to mind is the suspension in your car. If you’re traveling down the street at 20 mph, and you hit a small bump- let’s say the size of a golf-ball, your suspension will most likely absorb the bump. You might feel it in the floor and maybe in the seat, but for all practical purposes, the suspension did its job. Now, if you hit a speed bump at 20mph, you’ll know it and you might even catch some air. The suspension will most likely have bottomed out and your car will most likely receive a major jolt from the energy of the much more significant bump.
I may not be making any sense at all, and I’m certainly not trying to scare you into not using our product because it WILL help, I am just extremely cautious about telling people that it will help by a certain percentage because of the number of variables in a situation and the severity of the existing problem.
Again, if you want to discuss the situation, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you,
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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06.25.08
Posted in Soundproofing, Noise Control, "SOUND-PROOFING" a room, Sound Quality Improvement/ Echo reduction, Schools / Classrooms at 11:22 am by Ted W
This is one of the simplest yet coolest installations that I have seen. I really like the pattern created by the panels - I think it adds a great unique quality to the room.
These pictures were provided by Jason Ray, who is one of our approved installers in Alabama. Early in the year, Jason was working with a school in Alabama who reported a substantial echo problem in their gymnasium. Like most gyms, this room was not only very large, but consisted of nearly all hard surfaces. The larger the room and the harder the surfaces in that room – the worse the echo will be. If you are in the Birmingham Alabama area and want to contact Jason for an installation or a consult, feel free to contact him at 205-533-9375 or tsbstudios@mac.com. Please let him know that you aquired his contact information from Acoustical Surfaces so he has a point of reference.
Jason worked with the customer to install panels that were not only cost effective and acoustically absorbent, but he worked with them to create a very unique and great looking aesthetic. Based on the dimensions of the room, Jason and I determined that around 720 square feet of acoustical paneling should bring the reverberation time in the room down to an acceptable level. The school reviewed samples of the nine different colors that we offer for the Echo Eliminator panels and chose Beige based on the existing color scheme in the room.
One very common concern that is often raised about the Echo Eliminator is the impact resistance of the cotton – or lack thereof. It is true that the cotton is not the most impact resistant product that is on the market right now, but whenever I am talking to potential customers about gym installations, I always suggest that the panels be installed high enough on the walls or on the ceiling so that if they are struck with a softball or a volleyball, by the time the ball reaches the top of the wall or the ceiling- it is usually loosing much of it’s energy because of the distance traveled against gravity. Of course, with repeated impact, some of the panels are going to need to be replaced eventually, but the cost of the panels is such that they could be replaced three or four times over and still be cheaper than other products. Please keep in mind that there will be die-lot variations between manufacturing runs and if you plan on replacing any panels, purchase them with the original order so that they match the panels that are in the rest of the room.
After Jason and the school had agreed on a color as well as a quantity needed for the room in question, we boxed up 90 (2×4) panels and an ASI Knife blade and got them on the way. A few months later, I received an E-mail form Jason with the subject “Very happy client, here’s why” and attached were the two pictures included here. I was not aware that the 2×4 panels were going to be cut down to 2×2 and used as a geometric pattern on the walls, but I am quite impressed with the installation. Not only do the smaller squares create a very pleasing visual pattern, but they also allow for a nice balance of square footage spaced out throughout the room. Additionally, by cutting the panels down to the 2×2 and spacing them in such a way that only the corners are touching, more absorptive surface area is introduced into the room increasing the overall absorption of the square footage installed. Brilliant.
If you would like a quote for a similar room, please feel free to contact me. I will need the measurements (height, width & depth) of the room as well as a brief description of the surfaces that make up the space. Digital pictures are always a great aid for me to offer a few different recommendations for spacing and location. I will put together a box of possible products as well as corresponding literature and get them to you so you can see physical representations of the products that I can provide. After a product or a few products are selected, it is very easy to draft and fax or E-mail a quote to you for the project. Or, if you are in the Birmingham Alabama area and want to contact Jason for an installation or a consult, feel free to contact him at 205-533-9375 or tsbstudios@mac.com. Please let him know that you aquired his contact information from Acoustical Surfaces so he has a point of reference I you have any questions or need any information about this project or if you have one similar, please feel free to contact Ted Weidman at ted@acousticalsurfaces.com or 800-527-6253.
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06.24.08
Posted in Soundproofing at 2:03 pm by Ted W
Hello Ted:
I am writing to find out your suggestions on how to reduce a echo problem that exists in a Mall office public corridor. We recently completed a Life Style Center in Arizona and are experiencing a big problem with echoes in the mall office public corridor. The office corridor is 138’ long by 8’ wide by 10’ tall. The flooring consist of quarry tile and the walls and ceiling are a drywall painted finish. We also have bathrooms interconnected to the corridor at one end. Please see attached drawing for clarification. Our architect has thrown out some suggestions but admits he is not experienced in noise reduction coefficients.
Can you please make a suggestion on how to reduce or omit the echo problem that currently exists? Your website is full of ideas but frankly I could use some guidance. I looked at the following products wallmate, clear voice acoustical panels and echo eliminator. I notice in one of your blogs that a good starting point to figure out how many panels I need was to use 4% of the cubic volume. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
W.F.
___________________________________________________________________
I decided to add this to the blog and hopefully track it as a job. Most of the rooms that I am asked to help treat have much different dimensions - most are square or rectangular - much more so than this giant cooridor. I would absolutely love to get some panels into the space to see how the number and placement of panels affects the acoustic of the room.W.F.,
I read through all of the suggestions made by the architect, but for some reason there weren’t any links in the body of the E-mail and the PDF’s wouldn’t open for me either. Do you have the ability to take and send a few digital pictures of the space? Based on the dimensions of the room, I’m not at all surprised that a severe echo problem exists. You may want to start with the four-percent formula an then assess the situation after you have some panels installed. I’m sure you don’t need recording studio acoustics in the room, so a little trail and error would be appropriate here just to “take the edge off.”A few things came to mind as I was reading through the E-mail. I was a little confused as to why the architect made two recommendations of baffles, but then reading the E-mail above, it made sense. I would not suggest using baffles in this space – not only for fire code issues, but visually a baffle type installation is going to be incredibly disruptive. I only suggest the possibility of baffles when the ceiling height is over 18’-20’ like in a swimming pool or a gymnasium. Any ceiling lower makes the room feel very small and will often make awful shadows.The two suggestions that I would make (which might change after seeing pictures of the location) would be our 1” Thick Echo Eliminator panels adhered directly to the ceiling –spaced evenly along the 138’ surface. If one installed 400-450 square feet of the cotton into the space, I would be very surprised to hear of any kind of a echo in that space. I think that ceiling panels might be a little less visually intrusive as wall panels may be – and considering that it’s a public space, they will almost definitely last longer. These panels are made from recycled cotton, are class A/1 Fire rated, and are some of the most cost effective-yet acoustically absorbent panels on the market. Each 2×4 panel only weighs 2lbs, so they will adhere to the ceiling very easily with a construction grade caulk tube adhesive and a contact/spray adhesive. This is the product that is the absorbent core used in the WallMate system which may also be a possibility.
Another solution you might want to consider is the Fabric Wrapped Fiberglass panels. These are just as absorptive as the Echo Eliminator, but you have the ability to specify any panel size up to 4’ x 10’ panel dimensions as well as choose from hundreds of different fabrics to face each panel with. I also have the ability to have a local printing company print graphics onto the fabric before I adhere it to the fiberglass board. Either way, I would suggest sticking with the 1” thickness. The two inch panels would be overkill for this type of a room and also most likely more visually intrusive. If you want to see samples of either or both of these, please let me know and I will get them on the way as soon as I can. I will need your address as well – so please include that in an E-mail if you could.Let me know if this is confusing or if you need any additional information.
Thank you,
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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06.20.08
Posted in Soundproofing at 9:39 am by Ted W
Every spring, as soon as the weather starts to warm up we take more and more calls from people who are looking for the same thing - how to quiet a noisy air conditioning condensor. Especially in the early spring the noise from the condensors is troublesome because some people are running the AC while other people have their windows open. The constant drone of the machine can even be bothersome enough to drive neighbors to their breaking point.
Eliminating, or greatly reducing the amount of sound definately possible, and really not all that difficult to acomplish, but it has to be done correctly - which is the intent of this little write up. Please keep in mind that all installations are going to require some site specific customization, but this should hopefully point you in the right direction.
For this example, I am going to use the condensor pictured below and explain what I am trying to illistrate.
Here is a list of things to consider:
1. The distance of the enclosure from the condensor.
2. The Height and number of walls.
3. What kind of wall, fence or enclosure to build - and who is building it?
4. Which product to use to line the enclosure?
Alright, where to begin? The first step that you need to take is to determine the recommended distance of a wall from the condensor. I would strongly recommend getting in contact with the manufacturer of your AC unit (with your make and model numbers) and tell them that you are going to install a privacy fence around the condensor and you want to know the recommended distance of the fence walls from the unit. If you can not get ahold of them for some reason, contact a local HVAC contractor. If that wall is too close to the condenser, you are most likely going to stress the unit and blow out the machine. I don’t want that to happen and neither do you - so take the time to get this part right!
Once you have determined the distance of the walls from the unit, it is time to figure out what kind of walls you are going to build, or have some else build. Both of the products that I will recommend below are going to need some kind of a structure or subrate to which they will be attached. Usually the most decorative and “fitting” fence is an alternating board privacy fence, or even a heavy lattice like this one that I found on the internet:
One you have decided on the distance of your privacy fence from the condenser and the type of fencing that you are going to use, it is time to decide the number of the walls you are going to build. If you are going to go through the trouble to construct walls, build three walls in the shape of a “C” if you were looking down at the unit. That was easy, wasn’t it? 
I have always thought it would be a good idea to put the two side walls (the walls extending out from the house) on heavy duty hinges so they could be swung open incase someone needed to service the unit.
One of the harder questons to answer is the height of the walls that you are going to build. This is a little bit more of a difficult to answer because you have the exterior aesthetic of your yard to maintain. The overall height of the walls is going to be dictated by the height of the noise source. If we are using the picture above with the 3′ unit, the minimum height that I would want to see for a wall around the machine would be 4′-6″ tall - which is one-and-one-half the height of the noise source. Ideally, I would suggest installing a 6′ tall fence which is double the height of the noise source. With this in mind, the thing that is REALLY critical is eliminating the line-of-sight path. If you can still SEE the condenser, you are still going to be able to hear it. So if you are on a second or third floor and you can look over the walls of the enclosure you are most likely going to still hear a good amount of noise.
Alright, you are going to have to stick with me on this one, acoustic jargon beyond. When a air conditioner is installed next to a house or hard surface, sound that is going out of the back of the machine bounces off of the house and travels in the opposite direcion. The house kind of acts like a spring board for the sound. So, if your neighbor has a condensor on the side of their house and you have a porch or patio on the side or back of your house and you can see the condenser, you are not only hearing the noise that is traveling from the machine to your ear, but you are also hearing the noise that is going out of the back of the machine, bouncing off the house and then making its way to your ear.
The red panel shown on the picture above is an exterior grade quilted fiberglass absorber. If it is at all possible, I would strongly recommend installing a panel like this one along the house- even with the top of the other walls that you built. This is going to greatly increase the effectiveness of the acoustical panel system as a whole -while adding a very minimal amount to the overall dollar amount spent for the project.
Finally, we are onto what products to use. For exterior installations, I really only have two options. The Sound Silencer panels and the BBC-EXT-TR2 Exterior Grade sound blanket. Both of these panels are very different and I will do my best to describe the each and listing the advantaes and disadvantages of each.
The Sound Silencer panels come in 2′ x 4′ panels and either a 1″ or 2″ thickness. These are rigid boards made from a hollow expanded polypropylene bead. If you are installing these panels, I would strongly recommend making the walls of your enclosure out of 3/4″ exterior grade plywood and sealing up all of the air gaps with a sealant. The plywood is going to act as a good noise barrier coupled with the sound silencer, but more as a structural element to support the panels than anything else. The panels can be installed onto the plywood with a construction grade adhesive or be screwed through and into the plywood. The Sound Silencer panels usually cost $4.50 per square foot for the 1″ and $6.50 per square foot for the 2″ panel. The acoustical data for the 1″ panel is NRC: .45 / STC: 9 and the 2″ panel has an NRC: .70 and STC: 13. One imporaint thing to keep in mind about the Sound Silencer panels is that if they are exposed to a large amount of sunlight, the polypropylene will start to break down over time.
This is a picture of the surface of the Sound Silencer panel. More information can be found by clicking HERE.
The BEST product that we have for this type of installation is the BBC-EXT-TR2 Exterior Grade sound blanket. These panels will block as well as absorb more sound than even the 2″ Sound Silencer, but they are more expensive. These panels are constructed by stitching a 2″ (nominal thickness) fiberglass layer to an 1/8″ thick, 1# p.s.f. Mass Loaded Vinyl noise barrier. The fiberglass is encapsulated in exterior grade vinyl - which is similar to that used for covers for a boat or cooking grill. We install grommets through the top, middle and bottom of the panels and sew an exterior grade vertical Velcro seam along the left and right of each to attach one panel to the one next to it. These panels are intended to be installed outside and last for years and years without breaking down or failing. The only time that I have seen a panel fail is where it was not installed tight enough and allowed to “whip” in the wind. The grommets pulled through the reinforced vinyl destroying the mounting point. We can use a few different colors of vinyl for the backing: (standard) Gray, Tan, Green or light blue. We can also use a few different colors for the quilting: (standard) Gray, tan or black.
The BBC-EXT panels are all custom built to whatever measurements and sizes needed - so they will line your enclosure perfectly. The vinyl backing is intended to be mounted to a chain link or alternating board style privacy fence. The fiberglass quilting should face the noise source and is very effective at absorbing the reflective noise within the enclosure. Both the vinyl and the fiberglass are importiant to the performance of the product. The vinyl blocks the sound and the fiberglass absorbs the sound. If one were to build a concrete enclosure the sound would bounce around in the enclosure and spill out over the top. Absorbing the sound withing the enclosure GREATLY reduces sound leak over the walls. The cost of this option is going to depend on the quantity and size of the panels needed. I usually tell people to [b]ballpark[/b] the cost for the panels at about $15.00-$20.00 per square foot. The cost has a direct relationship to the size of panels that you need. It is more expensive option, but it truly is a situation where you get what you pay for.
This is a picture of a small sample of the BBC-EXT product. More information can be found by clicking HERE.
Belowis a picture of a larger installation that was recently completed. I am waiting to hear back from the customre with his description of the performance of the panels. Here is part of an E-mail that he sent just after the installation was completed:
Ted,
…the fence was installed on Saturday morning. I have many pictures for you. I have to tell you that your product exceeded my expectations. Exceeded any expectation. In order to hear that compressor now, I have to wait until about 3am and then open the window in direct line of the machine and strain to hear just a distant buzz. It is safe to say that the fence is a tremendous success. I have been so stressed over this situation that I’m still afraid that for some strange reason that the fence will stop working. Thanks, Carmen
If you have questions about the enclosure itself or the products suggested, please feel free to call or send me an E-mail. If you want me to draft a quote for you, I will need the height and width of all walls you are going to build as well as the height and width of the absorption panel that woud go on the building-if you are installing one.
Ted Weidman
Acoustical Surfaces Inc.
123 Columbia Court N.
Chaska, MN 55318
p. 800.527.6253 (ext.25)
f. 952.448.2613
e. ted@acousticalsurfaces.com
web. www.acousticalsurfaces.com
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